As a (I hope) thoughtful physician, once it was clear (and it did not take long) that there was no restriction in transmissibility resulting from the spikeshots, any mandate was utterly and completely indefensible. This just added another element to my from-the-beginning objections to mask (including N95) and lockdown requirements that have been well demonstrated (via RCT and otherwise) in dozens of studies to be utterly worthless, whether or not they meet someone's "bioplausible" criteria. (Remember that the sun circling the earth was long considered "geoplausible" -- it was just utterly wrong.)
Vinay is correct that the promoters of virtually everything bad are generally far-left, "do as I say" types; this still surprises me. Most of those on the right, even those that believe there are microchips in the spikeshots, are happy to tell you but generally are fine if you want to get the shot anyway.
The mandating of things that are utterly one's personal choice regarding their body without any evidence is reprehensible to most of us that think on both sides of the aisle. (It has also destroyed the "my body, my choice" arguments of several decades of the abortion proponents. It either is "your body your choice" or it is not. Both options cannot be true and the cognitive dissonance is not able to be hidden.) So there are many dominoes to fall.
The beauty of America is that as a truly (sort of) federated group of states, there are lots of laboratories. EVERYONE can see there is no difference between places that have mandated N95s for everyone and those who have and never will wear a mask. The spikeshot sequelae are just beginning to be seen but are also becoming too large to ignore -- and 1/3 of the country is not vaccinated so there is a large control group.
Interesting times to come. I have been telling my patients that spikeshots are a personal choice -- for some it is still (in my opinion) the lesser of two evils. For the vast majority, avoid them like the plague -- but if you want them anyway, that is your choice. Just understand the risks/rewards.
I expect that heads will eventually roll...it will just take a little more time for the absurdity of much of what has been happening to be unavoidably obvious. I am waiting with bated breath until then.
I agree with your points! I agree with VP on most things...one thing he never mentions (nor does ZDogg...may still be in the works)...is a HUGER group that has increasingly lost trust in public health AND the vaccines over the course of the last year as more and more people they know have become what they feel is vaccine injured. Its not about micro chips, etc (I think that is a tiny group that believes that)...but a fully vaccinated group (myself included) that are wondering what was in that? Why haven't the ingredients been put out? Why did they request 75yrs to put out the documents on the vaccine trial (absurd...is that NOT a red flag to anyone?)....why have there been more young healthy sports people (many in soccer) either dropped dead or had to leave their sport due to "unexplained reasons"....why isn't that on our news in a major way? Why are we still only discussing myocarditis and not other things that folks in the ER are seeing...repetitively...and a million other things that just don't add up. There are so many suspicious things that healthy folks like myself and many others that did get vaccinated early on...opinions have changed...& would NEVER get a booster and will NEVER get the Covid shot again until way way more transparency comes out on it. We fell for it once...won't do it again. I wish VP talked more about this and OTHER side effects from the vaccine that are being kept under wraps....
From one dr k to another, I could not agree more. I have been arguing the same to my friends and colleagues (in what some might call an illiberal leftist community) for almost 2 years now. Perhaps due to my own ineloquent delivery and obvious “freedom” bias (particularly around the issue of informed consent and bodily autonomy, which I respect as a surgeon), I have found only a shrinking Overton window. I am clearly now an outsider— not part of the in -group. But it is refreshing to understand that I am not alone. Thanks, Dr K!
K. Your patients are fortunate to receive your counseling and practice approach. I do think "heads rolling" won't be as effective to change hardliners as forgiveness. I don't care if Anthony Fauci gets indicted or fined, I just want him (and others at NIH and CDC) to be retired from their job with reputations former tarnished as an example for future folks placed in their roles.
Thank you for your thoughtful writings, Dr. Prasad. I have a lot of respect for you. The only part I question in this piece is this line: 'They think a healthy 65 year old is better off meeting the virus than the vaccine. Gulp!" From what I've read, the Pfizer trial data did not prove that overall deaths were reduced in the vaxxed cohort compared to the placebo group. In fact, one extra person died overall in the vaxxed group, including 4 cardiac arrests in the vaxxed group (1 cardiac arrest in the placebo group) plus 1 covid pneumonia death in vaxxed group (2 covid deaths in the placebo group). I feel like we really need to look at this trial data in understanding whether the vaccine helps or harms overall, since the real world data is so confounded (as you've said repeatedly). If I have anything wrong, I'd truly like to know.
Thanks again for all you do, and please keep going.
All cause mortality was higher in the Pfizer trial for the vaccination group. It is also higher in the real world study that is currently pre-print in the Lancet if believe. I really like Dr. Prasad’s thoughtfulness and approach, but I think a 65 year old can rightfully be reticent to be vaccinated against an illness they are highly likely to survive and recover fully from once they inevitably get it. Vaccine benefits wane, hence the reason for boosters, and the data that was coming out of the UK, before they stopped making it public, was showing that the odds ratio for becoming infected was over 1 with increasing values over time in the 2 shot, 1 booster and 2 booster cohorts ACROSS AGE GROUPS compared to the unvaccinated. The hospitalization and mortality odds ratios were also trending in a similar direction.
Thanks for discussing this. In a nutshell, it is what makes me feel more aggrieved than anything as a 59 yr old unvaxxed covid survivor. This immunity is pretty robust too. Been around many vaxxed friends/family who have gotten it without getting reinfected myself. There are many like me. Shouldn’t be a surprise to any that learned natural immunity is strongest in medical school (or those reading Israeli studies). What is surprising is how many docs were willing to suspend that knowledge with Gov/CDC propaganda.
There's no equivalency. A covidiot is a danger to himself and only himself. A covidian is a danger to everyone. And they also have the reins of power and are happily forcing people to participate in pandemic theatre.
Although I'm deeply concerned about people being forced to participate in medical/NPI-based interventions of questionable benefit to participate in society to combat SARS-CoV-2 (often against their best interests and perhaps even the best interests of society), I'm far more concerned about the precedents being set. Bodily autonomy must be non-negotiable. I've read that the WHO is drafting a *treaty* that will define effective means of coercion and possibly dictate worldwide implementation during future pandemics. If this is true, we should all be asking lots of questions.
Two years into this and I still haven't come across anyone who actually thinks there are microchips in the vaccine. It is a big world and I am sure someone does think this. But the main purpose of the microchip thing is to be any easy strawman for dismissing credible dissent.
Meanwhile I have met countless people who believe the most extreme things on the other side.
Important perspective and post! Reminds me of how today (Vancouver Canada) I saw the entrance to a public and purportedly “inclusive” recovery centre for women (Avalon, to be precise!) with its vax pass and mask sign still up for entry! We got rid of the pass and masks recently in our province but this place, which I think SHOULD be actually inclusive and welcoming (at all times!!!), has even included on their mask sign: “if you take your mask off at any time while inside you will be asked to leave”. This, to welcome women (trans etc, it even makes clear) to seek safety from addiction, trauma, abuse etc. The hypocrisy disgusts me. I’m very close to putting an additional sign on their door next time I walk by in off hours. I feel like it epitomizes the pandemic nonsense.
Vinay never reads his comments so I will give it a shot. If you are over 80, morbidly obese, or have one of a set of immunologic morbidities there are likely merits to deferring serious disease with the spikeshot. (It is not a vaccine, but it does put in place antibodies which for some shorter and shorter (but still measurable) period appears to decrease the chance of serious disease.)
If you are under 50 and not morbidly obese or immunologically compromised, it is really difficult to defend the spikeshots. And under 30, it is likely that the shot is worse than whatever covid infection one might get under almost any rubric. The data is pretty clear.
One of the issues with the young is that they have decades in which long term effects of the shot may come out. Most vaccines are tested for 10 years before rollout just to measure this. This one had 90 days of testing. If one is 80, the impact of as yet unknown long term effects is much more likely to be negligible than if one is 20.
For those between 50 and 80, it really is a personal decision for you and your health care practitioner. Everyone's health situation and risk tolerance situation is different. Adequate vitamin D levels should be high on your list (appears to help block infection) but beyond that it is mostly understanding what the shot will or will not do for you. I have plenty of 65 year olds that have opted to not get shot and plenty that have opted for it. But they all did it understanding the risks and the upsides. You should at least do the same.
And I would not get boosted at 65 unless you are in one of the high at risk groups. Any booster effect wanes substantially after 60 days and after 120 has almost no value. The fourth booster fades even faster. Having the two-dose vaccine or having covid confers reasoned continuing immunity.
And people are pretty smart -- it is why, despite the bureaucrats whining and Pfizer's advertising, booster uptake levels are low and people are no sicker where they are very low than where they are very high. So if you are not in the risk categories, you may very well not need to worry about the boosters.
My husband and I are both 81 and healthy. We are getting the 2nd booster. Neither of my sons is vaccinated. Neither were their families. They’ve all had covid a couple of months ago. My dil has type 1 diabetes and rheumatoid arthritis and she just had a runny nose. We spent Christmas with them. I think people have lost the ability to judge risk. We spent the first Christmas stuck in our house by ourselves and we made up a Christmas dinner tske away for our younger son. But we got fed up with that and we were over at my older son’s from time to time and we didn’t get covid. I am not prepared to lock myself in my house for ever.
One friend got very irate when I told her that Dr Paul Offit advised his son not to get a booster. She ranted “the man is an idiot”. This is the medical opinion of a retired school teacher talking about a man who is an authority on vaccines! It was so ridiculous it was embarrassing. Some people have lost their minds.
There is a risk is just about everything we do. Life doesn’t come with guarantees and we have to go on living. I think in Canada where we live people are just sick of the government control. A lot of us are sick of Justin Trudeau and his brainless friends but we seem stuck with them. I’d go back to the Uk if my family came with me! Boris is twit but at least he isn’t totally stupid.
Given that nearly half of the population might never become ill after exposure, per the UK Challenge trials and that few under 50 have ever died from an infection, most can weigh the risk/reward balance. At 65 it really does depend and given Omicron now, they should not be vaccinated. They should practice hygiene using mouthwash and nasal cleaning to stop viral replication. And they should have an adequate level of Vitamin D. At 82 with two shots but no more, all I can do is the hygiene.
As a (I hope) thoughtful physician, once it was clear (and it did not take long) that there was no restriction in transmissibility resulting from the spikeshots, any mandate was utterly and completely indefensible. This just added another element to my from-the-beginning objections to mask (including N95) and lockdown requirements that have been well demonstrated (via RCT and otherwise) in dozens of studies to be utterly worthless, whether or not they meet someone's "bioplausible" criteria. (Remember that the sun circling the earth was long considered "geoplausible" -- it was just utterly wrong.)
Vinay is correct that the promoters of virtually everything bad are generally far-left, "do as I say" types; this still surprises me. Most of those on the right, even those that believe there are microchips in the spikeshots, are happy to tell you but generally are fine if you want to get the shot anyway.
The mandating of things that are utterly one's personal choice regarding their body without any evidence is reprehensible to most of us that think on both sides of the aisle. (It has also destroyed the "my body, my choice" arguments of several decades of the abortion proponents. It either is "your body your choice" or it is not. Both options cannot be true and the cognitive dissonance is not able to be hidden.) So there are many dominoes to fall.
The beauty of America is that as a truly (sort of) federated group of states, there are lots of laboratories. EVERYONE can see there is no difference between places that have mandated N95s for everyone and those who have and never will wear a mask. The spikeshot sequelae are just beginning to be seen but are also becoming too large to ignore -- and 1/3 of the country is not vaccinated so there is a large control group.
Interesting times to come. I have been telling my patients that spikeshots are a personal choice -- for some it is still (in my opinion) the lesser of two evils. For the vast majority, avoid them like the plague -- but if you want them anyway, that is your choice. Just understand the risks/rewards.
I expect that heads will eventually roll...it will just take a little more time for the absurdity of much of what has been happening to be unavoidably obvious. I am waiting with bated breath until then.
I agree with your points! I agree with VP on most things...one thing he never mentions (nor does ZDogg...may still be in the works)...is a HUGER group that has increasingly lost trust in public health AND the vaccines over the course of the last year as more and more people they know have become what they feel is vaccine injured. Its not about micro chips, etc (I think that is a tiny group that believes that)...but a fully vaccinated group (myself included) that are wondering what was in that? Why haven't the ingredients been put out? Why did they request 75yrs to put out the documents on the vaccine trial (absurd...is that NOT a red flag to anyone?)....why have there been more young healthy sports people (many in soccer) either dropped dead or had to leave their sport due to "unexplained reasons"....why isn't that on our news in a major way? Why are we still only discussing myocarditis and not other things that folks in the ER are seeing...repetitively...and a million other things that just don't add up. There are so many suspicious things that healthy folks like myself and many others that did get vaccinated early on...opinions have changed...& would NEVER get a booster and will NEVER get the Covid shot again until way way more transparency comes out on it. We fell for it once...won't do it again. I wish VP talked more about this and OTHER side effects from the vaccine that are being kept under wraps....
From one dr k to another, I could not agree more. I have been arguing the same to my friends and colleagues (in what some might call an illiberal leftist community) for almost 2 years now. Perhaps due to my own ineloquent delivery and obvious “freedom” bias (particularly around the issue of informed consent and bodily autonomy, which I respect as a surgeon), I have found only a shrinking Overton window. I am clearly now an outsider— not part of the in -group. But it is refreshing to understand that I am not alone. Thanks, Dr K!
K. Your patients are fortunate to receive your counseling and practice approach. I do think "heads rolling" won't be as effective to change hardliners as forgiveness. I don't care if Anthony Fauci gets indicted or fined, I just want him (and others at NIH and CDC) to be retired from their job with reputations former tarnished as an example for future folks placed in their roles.
Thank you for your thoughtful writings, Dr. Prasad. I have a lot of respect for you. The only part I question in this piece is this line: 'They think a healthy 65 year old is better off meeting the virus than the vaccine. Gulp!" From what I've read, the Pfizer trial data did not prove that overall deaths were reduced in the vaxxed cohort compared to the placebo group. In fact, one extra person died overall in the vaxxed group, including 4 cardiac arrests in the vaxxed group (1 cardiac arrest in the placebo group) plus 1 covid pneumonia death in vaxxed group (2 covid deaths in the placebo group). I feel like we really need to look at this trial data in understanding whether the vaccine helps or harms overall, since the real world data is so confounded (as you've said repeatedly). If I have anything wrong, I'd truly like to know.
Thanks again for all you do, and please keep going.
All cause mortality was higher in the Pfizer trial for the vaccination group. It is also higher in the real world study that is currently pre-print in the Lancet if believe. I really like Dr. Prasad’s thoughtfulness and approach, but I think a 65 year old can rightfully be reticent to be vaccinated against an illness they are highly likely to survive and recover fully from once they inevitably get it. Vaccine benefits wane, hence the reason for boosters, and the data that was coming out of the UK, before they stopped making it public, was showing that the odds ratio for becoming infected was over 1 with increasing values over time in the 2 shot, 1 booster and 2 booster cohorts ACROSS AGE GROUPS compared to the unvaccinated. The hospitalization and mortality odds ratios were also trending in a similar direction.
Thank you, Dr. Vossen. These are great points. I've seen that data from the UK as well and it's very concerning.
Do you have the name of that Lancet study?
It was link to this Daniel Horowitz article. Hopefully the link works.
https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz-the-failure-of-the-mrna-shots-is-on-display-for-all-with-open-eyes
Thank you!
Great points. Curious as well.
Thanks for discussing this. In a nutshell, it is what makes me feel more aggrieved than anything as a 59 yr old unvaxxed covid survivor. This immunity is pretty robust too. Been around many vaxxed friends/family who have gotten it without getting reinfected myself. There are many like me. Shouldn’t be a surprise to any that learned natural immunity is strongest in medical school (or those reading Israeli studies). What is surprising is how many docs were willing to suspend that knowledge with Gov/CDC propaganda.
There's no equivalency. A covidiot is a danger to himself and only himself. A covidian is a danger to everyone. And they also have the reins of power and are happily forcing people to participate in pandemic theatre.
Although I'm deeply concerned about people being forced to participate in medical/NPI-based interventions of questionable benefit to participate in society to combat SARS-CoV-2 (often against their best interests and perhaps even the best interests of society), I'm far more concerned about the precedents being set. Bodily autonomy must be non-negotiable. I've read that the WHO is drafting a *treaty* that will define effective means of coercion and possibly dictate worldwide implementation during future pandemics. If this is true, we should all be asking lots of questions.
Two years into this and I still haven't come across anyone who actually thinks there are microchips in the vaccine. It is a big world and I am sure someone does think this. But the main purpose of the microchip thing is to be any easy strawman for dismissing credible dissent.
Meanwhile I have met countless people who believe the most extreme things on the other side.
(Great post btw.)
That point came to my mind immediately. There is mocking of those who believe the microchip theory but I have not seen anyone professing this belief.
YES!
Important perspective and post! Reminds me of how today (Vancouver Canada) I saw the entrance to a public and purportedly “inclusive” recovery centre for women (Avalon, to be precise!) with its vax pass and mask sign still up for entry! We got rid of the pass and masks recently in our province but this place, which I think SHOULD be actually inclusive and welcoming (at all times!!!), has even included on their mask sign: “if you take your mask off at any time while inside you will be asked to leave”. This, to welcome women (trans etc, it even makes clear) to seek safety from addiction, trauma, abuse etc. The hypocrisy disgusts me. I’m very close to putting an additional sign on their door next time I walk by in off hours. I feel like it epitomizes the pandemic nonsense.
One group inflicts pain on may others, others only on themselves.
Wow! So we’ll said!! As always thank you for making me feel like I’m not on an island in my opinion.
Do you think healthy 65 and under need to continue to vaccinate? Is there no way for this group to boost their own natural immunity?
Vinay never reads his comments so I will give it a shot. If you are over 80, morbidly obese, or have one of a set of immunologic morbidities there are likely merits to deferring serious disease with the spikeshot. (It is not a vaccine, but it does put in place antibodies which for some shorter and shorter (but still measurable) period appears to decrease the chance of serious disease.)
If you are under 50 and not morbidly obese or immunologically compromised, it is really difficult to defend the spikeshots. And under 30, it is likely that the shot is worse than whatever covid infection one might get under almost any rubric. The data is pretty clear.
One of the issues with the young is that they have decades in which long term effects of the shot may come out. Most vaccines are tested for 10 years before rollout just to measure this. This one had 90 days of testing. If one is 80, the impact of as yet unknown long term effects is much more likely to be negligible than if one is 20.
For those between 50 and 80, it really is a personal decision for you and your health care practitioner. Everyone's health situation and risk tolerance situation is different. Adequate vitamin D levels should be high on your list (appears to help block infection) but beyond that it is mostly understanding what the shot will or will not do for you. I have plenty of 65 year olds that have opted to not get shot and plenty that have opted for it. But they all did it understanding the risks and the upsides. You should at least do the same.
And I would not get boosted at 65 unless you are in one of the high at risk groups. Any booster effect wanes substantially after 60 days and after 120 has almost no value. The fourth booster fades even faster. Having the two-dose vaccine or having covid confers reasoned continuing immunity.
And people are pretty smart -- it is why, despite the bureaucrats whining and Pfizer's advertising, booster uptake levels are low and people are no sicker where they are very low than where they are very high. So if you are not in the risk categories, you may very well not need to worry about the boosters.
My husband and I are both 81 and healthy. We are getting the 2nd booster. Neither of my sons is vaccinated. Neither were their families. They’ve all had covid a couple of months ago. My dil has type 1 diabetes and rheumatoid arthritis and she just had a runny nose. We spent Christmas with them. I think people have lost the ability to judge risk. We spent the first Christmas stuck in our house by ourselves and we made up a Christmas dinner tske away for our younger son. But we got fed up with that and we were over at my older son’s from time to time and we didn’t get covid. I am not prepared to lock myself in my house for ever.
One friend got very irate when I told her that Dr Paul Offit advised his son not to get a booster. She ranted “the man is an idiot”. This is the medical opinion of a retired school teacher talking about a man who is an authority on vaccines! It was so ridiculous it was embarrassing. Some people have lost their minds.
There is a risk is just about everything we do. Life doesn’t come with guarantees and we have to go on living. I think in Canada where we live people are just sick of the government control. A lot of us are sick of Justin Trudeau and his brainless friends but we seem stuck with them. I’d go back to the Uk if my family came with me! Boris is twit but at least he isn’t totally stupid.
I couldn’t have said it better myself. Great stuff. I’m happy that your patients have you as their provider.
Thank you for your response. Very helpful.
Given that nearly half of the population might never become ill after exposure, per the UK Challenge trials and that few under 50 have ever died from an infection, most can weigh the risk/reward balance. At 65 it really does depend and given Omicron now, they should not be vaccinated. They should practice hygiene using mouthwash and nasal cleaning to stop viral replication. And they should have an adequate level of Vitamin D. At 82 with two shots but no more, all I can do is the hygiene.
Except that you can also have a supply of Ivermectin or Fluvoxamine on hand which has worked for many (probably not all) without harming anyone.
Yep, risk/benefit analysis confirms your stance.