Can you have Dr. Z tell this to Dr. Offit next time he sees him? They are still masking at CHOP for certain symptoms and you see the staff largely masking. We go to a CHOP satellite office for primary care and it annoys me. I know there will always be some who mask from now on, but we can try to at least combat bad policy! For the record I did mask when we didn't (or I didn't) know better but I was a skeptic. It would be great if we could get this messaging out by someone most will believe
I know what you mean. MY GP's office @ St Mary's Med Bldg has a sign on the door that you cannot enter unless wearing a mask. On the sliding glass window, one of the practice Dr's has a typed up list that you need a mask & vaccination card (Who asks for this anymore??). I want to scream every time I'm in that office.
I love my Dr otherwise I would. She's a good GP and has an excellent NP which are so hard to find. Thankfully, I don't see the other Dr. who requires proof of vaccination.
Are you saying it makes no sense to wear a mssk in public indoors if one is very vulnerable to URIs? I have long Covid and it is Hell. A curse. It sucks--the life out of you.
Yes, The evidence is overwhelming. Unless you are wearing a P100 respirator fitted for you or a brand new, N95 mask fitted for you (and that only for an hour or so) masking is valueless. Multiple studies in ORs where comparative OR staffs were masked and unmasked -- no difference in patient nor provider outcomes. This was the lie that begat all the rest.
Why are all people who make mistakes liars? Are all doctors who make mistaken diagnoses and engage in practices that lack evidence liars? Are all doctors and others who wear masks in the OR fools and liars? So much demonization going around. To err is human, not evil. Are you always right?
Masks do not provide any benefit whatsoever and are probably unhealthy, as they trap bacteria. They will also isolate you socially, which is harmful emotionally.
The people who recommended or demanded masks be worn did it for some other reason than your health, probably their ego.
I don't understand why trapping my own bacteria from my own lungs makes a difference, even over a long period of time. Please explain, maybe you're right, but I've never heard this. I don't mind being socially isolated in a public space where nobody knows me I don't care to be known--just want to go about my private business. I find people quite friendly to me when I'm wearing a mask, and I reciprocate, and feel unharmed emotionally.
"Probably their ego"? You paint with a very fat brush. Many individuals have multiple motives, and they don't necessarily overlap with others' motives. Many of "the people" who recommended masks maybe thought, mistakenly perhaps, that lives would be saved--I find that altruistic, not egoistic. I prefer a pointilist painting of the heterogeneity of people, their widely varying knowledge, thoughts, motives, and--righteousness, arrogance, and--beliefs in their superior intelligence. And delusions of significance.
I have read the study. A possibility, yes, but a slim one. Also, it begins by saying millions of lives were saved by the vaccines. Only a tiny number get post-vax syndrome. Correct me if I'm wrong. So, therefore, what.....?
I think Vinay went over this in another substack, but it's unlikely anyone's life was saved by the vaccines unfortunately.
Unless you got both vaccines and Covid around the same time, I would assume, that you know whether long-covid onset came after a vaccine or Covid itself?
I would be interested in reading what he wrote on vaccines and how he came to that conclusion.
I've read that there have been significant excess deaths in red states, possibly because of negative attitudes about vaccination, etc., and fewer mandates. I don't know how good the research is or could be given methodological problems.
He's saying that the studies show no benefit overall to the entire community masking - that it doesn't stop community spread, and that cloth masks are particularly ineffective, and that because of this, there shouldn't be mandates. Certainly not for populations like kids in schools where there are real negatives to learning.
There could be a lot of reasons for this - during the pandemic, for example, it could be that most spread was between families, so public masking wasn't addressing the majority of spread. It could be that a lot of people cracked open the windows, and that those who didn't were sitting in closed rooms for hours where a mask couldn't prevent anything anyways.
Personally, I feel like if you're sick and you're coughing and you've decided to go out (wish people wouldn't, but maybe they need food or medicine), a mask is more effective than "covering your cough" with your arm. Sometimes Vinay will observe people wearing masks, comment on it in his Substacks ("why are they still doing this?") and doesn't seem to acknowledge that these studies weren't testing particular situations like "masking by sick people reduces transmission".
Thanks. I'm just worried about getting infected again and making things worse. Even if my mask is only partially effective, why not? Why regard me as stupid, Vinay? I know I famous cardiologist in a certain big city in Massachusetts who has had long Covid for 3+ years. He masks in public. I listen to him. Akiko Iwasaki, the celebrated, supposedly brilliant Yale immunologist and long Covid expert always masks--knowing how devastating long Covid is to people lives.
DOJ needs to be aware of confounders such as sheltering in place causing lost wages pushing study subject into life of crime with mask! Who otherwise may never had become a data point in this retrospective review.
Prasad; a thousand thanks. I thought I was alone with this concern.
(1): In Spring of 2020; I passed a man with handkerchief mask and hat and sunglasses. No part of his face/head was visible. He could have been a metal robot.
(2): In Summer 2020; I was standing on the sidewalk waiting for light to turn green. Next to me was a masked stranger that I didn’t recognize. Two minutes later; we both jumped in shock. The “stranger” was my supervisor whom I saw in the office daily. She hadn’t recognized me at first, either.
(3): Facial recognition deters many from antisocial behavior. When faces become obscured during a societal emergency- the “recognition as deterrent” component decreases in effect. Therefore, a number of people would be expected to engage in more frequent or more severe antisocial behavior. Therefore, increased cooperation with police is necessary. But, we did the opposite by combining obscured identity with less police cooperation in 2020 during the George Floyd riots.
(4): In my neighborhood, you can see which people are the drug-dealers because they wear Covid masks.
(5): I have been very frustrated by city/state/federal officials who failed to publicly declare that the mask phase of Covid epidemic was over.
(6): For a comparison, is cooperation with law enforcement less or greater in Muslim countries where have the population has concealed faces?
Talk about cherry picking Vinay. Most of you posts are great but you seem to follow some talking points of certain ideological groups.
Here's a quick review from Chat GPT
Recent studies have provided substantial evidence supporting the effectiveness of masks in reducing the transmission of respiratory viruses:
Comprehensive Review (2024): An extensive review published in Clinical Microbiology Reviews analyzed over 400 studies across various disciplines. The findings strongly indicate that masks and respirators are effective in mitigating the spread of respiratory infections, including COVID-19.
Cochrane Review (2023): A Cochrane review evaluated randomized controlled trials and cluster trials on interventions aimed at reducing respiratory virus spread. The analysis highlighted the importance of understanding study conditions when interpreting findings related to mask efficacy.
Modeling Study (2021): Research utilizing computational models demonstrated that combining universal mask-wearing with physical distancing of at least one meter can reduce exposure to airborne pathogens by over 99%. This significant reduction underscores the critical role of masks in controlling virus transmission.
The Cochrane Review did NOT conclude that masks worked, most especially cloth and surgical. Please read again what Chat GPT said, or didn’t say, in its response.
I believe Vinay and maybe Tracy Beth Hoag possibly wrote about masking studies and broke them down in detail a couple of years ago?
Vinay stated: "the evidence was clear that community mask wearing did not slow the spread of respiratory viruses". The Cochrane Review concluded that the evidence was insufficient to prove either way, and certainly did not conclude that they don't work. If you look at some of these studies they are pretty hopeless. Most of us believe that a properly fitted surgical mask most probably prevents spread of infection, assuming other measures such as hand washing and separation will reduce transmission. It appears like common sense, I doubt we'll see surgical masks abandoned in theatre. Without a properly designed and controlled trial to determine this we have to rely on common sense. When in the early stages of a pandemic and prior to a vaccine it is best to rely on common sense when clinical trials are inadequate to exclude the expected benefit. Reminds me of the NEJM 'study' pointing out that there was no reliable evidence that using a parachute was any safer when jumping out of a plane than not using a parachute.
Some studies are pretty hopeless. Definitely agree on that. Remember that there was a lot of pushback on Tom Jefferson’s conclusions in the Cochrane review. Vinay has explained in detail why community masking doesn’t work in other articles. In addition, I’m sure you’re aware that masking in the healthcare arena was originally designed as a way to protect against blood borne pathogens, not respiratory viruses. Once again I recommend the not cherry picked, paper by Vinay and others that reviewed many mask studies, analyzed methodology, and concluded that cloth and surgical masks are not effective at reducing spread of respiratory viruses, among other conclusions that so many of the mask studies have been deeply flawed. In addition, I recommend a study be done on the long term effects of mask wearing on the immune system. Also the issue is community masking, emphasis on community, which introduces all sorts of issues.
I agree with most of your comments. However having looked at some of those studies, they just aren't performed well enough to tell us if a properly fitted surgical mask ?N95 in combination with other measures. In the middle of an epidemic killing thousands of people and in the absence of reliable data, we just have to rely on common sense. The freedom fighters from MAGA and the US are rather ridiculous carrying on as if it is a massive issue, when in fact following an aggressive vaccination program would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. They were inconvenienced for a while whilst many people died unecessarily.
Despite being made aware, multiple times, along with many others in the guv, the "department of JUSTICE" , doesn't see anything wrong with a Swiss pharmaceutical company ripping off medicare for billions with useless so called drugs.
Can you have Dr. Z tell this to Dr. Offit next time he sees him? They are still masking at CHOP for certain symptoms and you see the staff largely masking. We go to a CHOP satellite office for primary care and it annoys me. I know there will always be some who mask from now on, but we can try to at least combat bad policy! For the record I did mask when we didn't (or I didn't) know better but I was a skeptic. It would be great if we could get this messaging out by someone most will believe
I know what you mean. MY GP's office @ St Mary's Med Bldg has a sign on the door that you cannot enter unless wearing a mask. On the sliding glass window, one of the practice Dr's has a typed up list that you need a mask & vaccination card (Who asks for this anymore??). I want to scream every time I'm in that office.
Why are you still going there? Maybe it’s time to find another office.
I love my Dr otherwise I would. She's a good GP and has an excellent NP which are so hard to find. Thankfully, I don't see the other Dr. who requires proof of vaccination.
OK. I misunderstood your comment.
Vaccination card?!? Good grief!!!
Lol, IKR???
Absolutely insane!!
The biggest crime produced by mask is Fauci’s.
Are you saying it makes no sense to wear a mssk in public indoors if one is very vulnerable to URIs? I have long Covid and it is Hell. A curse. It sucks--the life out of you.
Yes, The evidence is overwhelming. Unless you are wearing a P100 respirator fitted for you or a brand new, N95 mask fitted for you (and that only for an hour or so) masking is valueless. Multiple studies in ORs where comparative OR staffs were masked and unmasked -- no difference in patient nor provider outcomes. This was the lie that begat all the rest.
Why are all people who make mistakes liars? Are all doctors who make mistaken diagnoses and engage in practices that lack evidence liars? Are all doctors and others who wear masks in the OR fools and liars? So much demonization going around. To err is human, not evil. Are you always right?
Don’t shoot the messenger…
I don’t think Dr. K deserves this type of comment.
Why talk about a "lie"? The people advocating masking were not "lying." I know many who are decent, honest, and sincere. Please explain; I'll listen.
In fact masks might be bad in an OR. Here’s one study from 30+ years ago, however, it wasn’t statistically significant.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01658736
Masks do not provide any benefit whatsoever and are probably unhealthy, as they trap bacteria. They will also isolate you socially, which is harmful emotionally.
The people who recommended or demanded masks be worn did it for some other reason than your health, probably their ego.
I don't understand why trapping my own bacteria from my own lungs makes a difference, even over a long period of time. Please explain, maybe you're right, but I've never heard this. I don't mind being socially isolated in a public space where nobody knows me I don't care to be known--just want to go about my private business. I find people quite friendly to me when I'm wearing a mask, and I reciprocate, and feel unharmed emotionally.
"Probably their ego"? You paint with a very fat brush. Many individuals have multiple motives, and they don't necessarily overlap with others' motives. Many of "the people" who recommended masks maybe thought, mistakenly perhaps, that lives would be saved--I find that altruistic, not egoistic. I prefer a pointilist painting of the heterogeneity of people, their widely varying knowledge, thoughts, motives, and--righteousness, arrogance, and--beliefs in their superior intelligence. And delusions of significance.
Ok, you’re right. Don’t change a thing.
It's quite possible your long covid is a result of the Vaccine rather than covid. https://news.yale.edu/2025/02/19/immune-markers-post-vaccination-syndrome-indicate-future-research-directions
I have read the study. A possibility, yes, but a slim one. Also, it begins by saying millions of lives were saved by the vaccines. Only a tiny number get post-vax syndrome. Correct me if I'm wrong. So, therefore, what.....?
I think Vinay went over this in another substack, but it's unlikely anyone's life was saved by the vaccines unfortunately.
Unless you got both vaccines and Covid around the same time, I would assume, that you know whether long-covid onset came after a vaccine or Covid itself?
Shortly after acute Covid, both times.
I would be interested in reading what he wrote on vaccines and how he came to that conclusion.
I've read that there have been significant excess deaths in red states, possibly because of negative attitudes about vaccination, etc., and fewer mandates. I don't know how good the research is or could be given methodological problems.
He's saying that the studies show no benefit overall to the entire community masking - that it doesn't stop community spread, and that cloth masks are particularly ineffective, and that because of this, there shouldn't be mandates. Certainly not for populations like kids in schools where there are real negatives to learning.
There could be a lot of reasons for this - during the pandemic, for example, it could be that most spread was between families, so public masking wasn't addressing the majority of spread. It could be that a lot of people cracked open the windows, and that those who didn't were sitting in closed rooms for hours where a mask couldn't prevent anything anyways.
Personally, I feel like if you're sick and you're coughing and you've decided to go out (wish people wouldn't, but maybe they need food or medicine), a mask is more effective than "covering your cough" with your arm. Sometimes Vinay will observe people wearing masks, comment on it in his Substacks ("why are they still doing this?") and doesn't seem to acknowledge that these studies weren't testing particular situations like "masking by sick people reduces transmission".
Thanks. I'm just worried about getting infected again and making things worse. Even if my mask is only partially effective, why not? Why regard me as stupid, Vinay? I know I famous cardiologist in a certain big city in Massachusetts who has had long Covid for 3+ years. He masks in public. I listen to him. Akiko Iwasaki, the celebrated, supposedly brilliant Yale immunologist and long Covid expert always masks--knowing how devastating long Covid is to people lives.
DOJ needs to be aware of confounders such as sheltering in place causing lost wages pushing study subject into life of crime with mask! Who otherwise may never had become a data point in this retrospective review.
Prasad; a thousand thanks. I thought I was alone with this concern.
(1): In Spring of 2020; I passed a man with handkerchief mask and hat and sunglasses. No part of his face/head was visible. He could have been a metal robot.
(2): In Summer 2020; I was standing on the sidewalk waiting for light to turn green. Next to me was a masked stranger that I didn’t recognize. Two minutes later; we both jumped in shock. The “stranger” was my supervisor whom I saw in the office daily. She hadn’t recognized me at first, either.
(3): Facial recognition deters many from antisocial behavior. When faces become obscured during a societal emergency- the “recognition as deterrent” component decreases in effect. Therefore, a number of people would be expected to engage in more frequent or more severe antisocial behavior. Therefore, increased cooperation with police is necessary. But, we did the opposite by combining obscured identity with less police cooperation in 2020 during the George Floyd riots.
(4): In my neighborhood, you can see which people are the drug-dealers because they wear Covid masks.
(5): I have been very frustrated by city/state/federal officials who failed to publicly declare that the mask phase of Covid epidemic was over.
(6): For a comparison, is cooperation with law enforcement less or greater in Muslim countries where have the population has concealed faces?
Lots of studies demonstrating the efficacy of masks: You pick and choose the studies supporting your viewpoint
Infectious Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) in Exhaled Aerosols and Efficacy of Masks During Early Mild Infection.
Adenaiye OO, Lai J, Bueno de Mesquita PJ, et al.
Clinical Infectious Diseases : An Official Publication of the Infectious Diseases Society of America. 2022;75(1):e241-e248. doi:10.1093/cid/ciab797.
supportingyour preconceived views:
Masks and Respirators for Prevention of Respiratory Infections: A State of the Science Review.
Greenhalgh T, MacIntyre CR, Baker MG, et al.
Clinical Microbiology Reviews. 2024;37(2):e0012423. doi:10.1128/cmr.00124-23.
Maximizing Fit for Cloth and Medical Procedure Masks to Improve Performance and Reduce SARS-CoV-2 Transmission and Exposure, 2021.
Brooks JT, Beezhold DH, Noti JD, et al.
MMWR. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report. 2021;70(7):254-257. doi:10.15585/mmwr.mm7007e1.
Respiratory Virus Shedding in Exhaled Breath and Efficacy of Face Masks.
Leung NHL, Chu DKW, Shiu EYC, et al.
Nature Medicine. 2020;26(5):676-680. doi:10.1038/s41591-020-0843-2.
Talk about cherry picking Vinay. Most of you posts are great but you seem to follow some talking points of certain ideological groups.
Here's a quick review from Chat GPT
Recent studies have provided substantial evidence supporting the effectiveness of masks in reducing the transmission of respiratory viruses:
Comprehensive Review (2024): An extensive review published in Clinical Microbiology Reviews analyzed over 400 studies across various disciplines. The findings strongly indicate that masks and respirators are effective in mitigating the spread of respiratory infections, including COVID-19.
PHC.OX.AC.UK
Cochrane Review (2023): A Cochrane review evaluated randomized controlled trials and cluster trials on interventions aimed at reducing respiratory virus spread. The analysis highlighted the importance of understanding study conditions when interpreting findings related to mask efficacy.
JAMANETWORK.COM
Modeling Study (2021): Research utilizing computational models demonstrated that combining universal mask-wearing with physical distancing of at least one meter can reduce exposure to airborne pathogens by over 99%. This significant reduction underscores the critical role of masks in controlling virus transmission.
ARXIV.ORG
These studies collectively reinforce the role of masks as a vital tool in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses.
The Cochrane Review did NOT conclude that masks worked, most especially cloth and surgical. Please read again what Chat GPT said, or didn’t say, in its response.
I believe Vinay and maybe Tracy Beth Hoag possibly wrote about masking studies and broke them down in detail a couple of years ago?
Vinay stated: "the evidence was clear that community mask wearing did not slow the spread of respiratory viruses". The Cochrane Review concluded that the evidence was insufficient to prove either way, and certainly did not conclude that they don't work. If you look at some of these studies they are pretty hopeless. Most of us believe that a properly fitted surgical mask most probably prevents spread of infection, assuming other measures such as hand washing and separation will reduce transmission. It appears like common sense, I doubt we'll see surgical masks abandoned in theatre. Without a properly designed and controlled trial to determine this we have to rely on common sense. When in the early stages of a pandemic and prior to a vaccine it is best to rely on common sense when clinical trials are inadequate to exclude the expected benefit. Reminds me of the NEJM 'study' pointing out that there was no reliable evidence that using a parachute was any safer when jumping out of a plane than not using a parachute.
Some studies are pretty hopeless. Definitely agree on that. Remember that there was a lot of pushback on Tom Jefferson’s conclusions in the Cochrane review. Vinay has explained in detail why community masking doesn’t work in other articles. In addition, I’m sure you’re aware that masking in the healthcare arena was originally designed as a way to protect against blood borne pathogens, not respiratory viruses. Once again I recommend the not cherry picked, paper by Vinay and others that reviewed many mask studies, analyzed methodology, and concluded that cloth and surgical masks are not effective at reducing spread of respiratory viruses, among other conclusions that so many of the mask studies have been deeply flawed. In addition, I recommend a study be done on the long term effects of mask wearing on the immune system. Also the issue is community masking, emphasis on community, which introduces all sorts of issues.
I agree with most of your comments. However having looked at some of those studies, they just aren't performed well enough to tell us if a properly fitted surgical mask ?N95 in combination with other measures. In the middle of an epidemic killing thousands of people and in the absence of reliable data, we just have to rely on common sense. The freedom fighters from MAGA and the US are rather ridiculous carrying on as if it is a massive issue, when in fact following an aggressive vaccination program would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. They were inconvenienced for a while whilst many people died unecessarily.
Despite being made aware, multiple times, along with many others in the guv, the "department of JUSTICE" , doesn't see anything wrong with a Swiss pharmaceutical company ripping off medicare for billions with useless so called drugs.