So glad you addressed this! I’m not a big drinker (2 glasses of anything, and I’m sawing logs), but I wondered why this Prohibition style document suddenly appeared and what evidence arose to spark the alarm. I’m glad to have your take. And I am particularly delighted with your sense of humor. I had no idea when I first saw you on ZDogg back in the beginnings of the wet-market nightmare that you were this irreverent and hilarious. Who would have thought that evidence-based medicine could be so much fun!
I went out with a woman (in her 50s) who said she wouldn't date someone who doesn't drink wine, because it makes dining out not as pleasurable. I was sympathetic to her view and we very compatibly shared a bottle of wine when we dined out together.
I'm now in a relationship with a woman from another culture and another continent, and she is critical of my nightly wine drinking (2 glasses worth). She will occasionally drink some, and usually has one Margarita when we dine out.
"Epistemic Chaos" accelerates. On the anti-alcohol side:
1) Surgeon General
2) Tyler Cowen
3) Popular Floozies like Andrew Huberman
4) Millennials positioning themselves to advocate for more, and more legal weed.
On the Pro-Alcohol Side:
1) Scott Galloway
2) "European Lifestyle"
3) And thankfully--probably the most qualified person on either side--Vinay Prasad.
Oh come on! Those can be fun sometimes- games that is -
Basically I agree with Vinay and for the surgeon general to suggest this with such weak evidence is yet another reason that I am really looking forward to a new administration.
I think there was an ulterior motive to this distraction regarding alcohol. I think it is a convenient excuse for the exponential rise in all cause mortality, that we have seen in the past several years. I think that this administration does not really want to search for the actual reasons for this dramatic increase. It’s certainly not alcohol consumption.
Could be! A distraction of sorts, creating little and sometimes not so little issues for the next administration to have to fix. When Trump met with Biden and people were talking about Biden’s huge grin, I said to my husband that it was because he’s going to screw the next administration however he could and as many ways as he could. It was not a benevolent smile. He was smiling that Cheshire Cat grin because he had plans. Lots of them. He had lots of secrets and was very excited to wreak havoc.
The tongue-in-cheek comments aside (and wonderfully appreciated), this was masterful. Can I adopt you as another role model? As a somewhat serious red wine drinker, I loved the comment about taking some Sommelier instruction. Another inspiration for this notion is from the book "Cork Dork" which extols the love of wine. Cheers!
Wondering if your studies would include women, or perhaps a RCT just for us? I’m currently on an alcohol sabbatical. At almost 43, I’ve noticed with my change in hormones, adding alcohol leads to PVCs. With heart problems on my maternal side, skipping alcohol to prevent what feels like a skipping heart seems like a good trade off.
I don’t trust much data on alcohol use because it’s not geared towards women, nor does it account for hormonal changes and other hard to measure data points such as anxiety or stress.
Plus, like you said, there are other sides to it such as spiritual. Leaning into alcohol helps diminish my sensitivities to the world, which for many years I yearned for. Now I’m trying to embrace my intuition and grow my somatic awareness and embodiment. Alcohol seems to cloud or restrict my senses, at least the ways I used it.
Sadly, our culture is very pro-alcohol, so it’s hard not to be in the drinking majority. I have studied all your suggested areas and love wine, tequila, champagne, and beer but still feel the best place for me is dry, for now.
I wish you would use your philosophy degree more often and share with more nuance, even though I love your flippancy too. I would love to come to one of your dinner parties but would hope I would bring more to the table than just my love of wine for an invite back.
Not sure why I’m even commenting as you don’t seem to read these anyway. Still a fan, but a bit disappointed in this one.
"You can come to my dinner party and not drink, but you won’t be coming back."
Or,
"You have to be vaccinated to come to my dinner party"
"You can come to my dinner party, but you have to wear a mask"
Sorry Vinay, you lost me. People making reasonable lifestyle choices and trying to be prudent about what they put into their bodies apparently is just too much for you, the vaccine pushers, and the maskers. All you have proven is that you are not a seeker of truth but rather one who desires to coerce behavior around whatever confirmation bias you can tease out of a study.
Your attitude is consistent with millennia of social tribal behavior. The group must ingest brain poison of some type and have their state of mind altered at some level to gain acceptance.
How thoroughly modern and thoughtful. I had high hopes for your work but it really seems like worthless navel gazing at this point. Unsubscribed.
Perhaps not. Perhaps no sense at all but Vinay's comment reveals once again that social biases plague science and the search for truth. Maybe Vinay's dinner guest was a former alcoholic that chose not to reveal that past. Vinay is certainly allowed to set the criteria for his dinner guests, but his bias to associate only with people who imbibe, reveals a common problem with those who purport to analyze scientific data.
Should an OCD germophobe conduct studies on masking? Should a vaccine manufacturer be responsible for vaccine policy.
My own bias is that there are a lot of dinner parties you can tell that I am no longer invited to because I didn't meet the social standard as to what I drank, wore on my face or though about as to what I was injected with. Best
Dr. Mike Osterholm for some time here in Minnesota during rampant COVID days had a strict policy of requiring people who came to dinner parties at his lavish skyscraper condominium to "test negative" some number of times within a prior time period before an event. We have to suppose that he, his partner, and their guests dropped their 3M face masks for the no-doubt fine wines served during the vigorous pre-dinner gemutlichkeit as the candles flickered all around.
Steve, the difference is there are several thousand years of evidence of benefits of alcohol (that doesn't mean there aren't "costs"). But there isn't great evidence of the benefits of the covid vax, and almost no good evidence of the benefits of continuing masking in public against the covid virus.
It has been said that traditions are still traditions because they are behavior patterns that work, that have stood the test of time. With that said, I'm sure that we are all happy that many behaviors from the last several thousand years have disappeared.
Sure, social bonding, French paradox, stress reduction, the tradition of drinking sterile alcohol versus a contaminated water source could all be looked at as possible benefits.
The question is whether alcohol is damaging to human organs and at what amounts.
A researcher with a certain level of social bias to alcohol' s benefit loses credibility on this issue.
As a fellow oncologist and wine enthusiast, I salute VP. He reminds us that our lifestyles should not be divided into good vs. bad. You do you. The surgeon general and his clueless posse seem to feel good about false indoctrination and shaming. Even worse, they create an army of judgmental ignoramuses that perpetuates nonsense and call it science.
My brother (a PhD virologist) and I (an MD) were introduced to alcohol by our parents as children. We would be given a tiny glass of the wine that was being serve at family occasion dinners and also a wee bit of champagne on NYE. A taste of a beer or a cocktail at times, mostly resulting in us making yuck faces. We live in Wisconsin, which has a horrific alcohol issue, but we never ended up in that group.
We continue to enjoy wine and cocktails with family and friends, and my daughters either took oenology classes in college or bartended. One is quite a good mixologist. My husband's family were teetotalers and he drinks rarely.
Based on family and personal experience as a physician, the only folks I have seen (and I have seen many in my 35 years) with significant health issues are those who have a drinking issue. Our state should have cancer numbers at the top end of the scale if light and moderate drinking caused this many tumors. I don't believe that is the case.
I love your comments, Vinay, and feel they are pretty similar to the way my family has functioned for years.
I can definitely relate to the beginning of your comment. I was raised in a family that embraced our Italian heritage. Wine was served at every Holiday meal and children were always welcome to have a small glass of whatever was being served. There were no taboos around alcohol consumption and I think that because of that, our attitudes toward alcohol were formed such that I was not interested in consuming large quantities of it in high school or college. Among the biggest consumers of alcohol at my high school was a group of Mormon teens, for whom alcohol was forbidden. This made it very desirable to them. My husband and I raised our children as I was raised and had no issues with them and alcohol. It wasn’t mysterious or a rebellious act to drink so they didn’t abuse the privilege.
Completely agree with that, Michelle. When I was growing up the drinking age was 18, and I still didn’t binge drink in college. Enjoyed parties in college and med school but never really had issues with being hungover. Neither of my daughters got in trouble in college although I know they drank at times.
My 90-something old MIL is the most anti-drinking person I've ever met and she's old and weirdly happy. She thinks that anyone who has ever had a drink is an alcoholic and if you deny it, she'll say denying it is proof.
What's the current evidence on drinking while pregnant? Back when I was pregnant 30-some years ago, it was okay to have one drink a day. A few years after that, they started saying no amount is okay.
And where are we with eggs? I can't keep up with government recommendations.
So glad you addressed this! I’m not a big drinker (2 glasses of anything, and I’m sawing logs), but I wondered why this Prohibition style document suddenly appeared and what evidence arose to spark the alarm. I’m glad to have your take. And I am particularly delighted with your sense of humor. I had no idea when I first saw you on ZDogg back in the beginnings of the wet-market nightmare that you were this irreverent and hilarious. Who would have thought that evidence-based medicine could be so much fun!
“You can come to my dinner party and not drink, but you won’t be coming back.”
Wow. No what I would’ve expected from a mature person. It appears you think drinking is required to be socially accretive. Weak sauce.
I went out with a woman (in her 50s) who said she wouldn't date someone who doesn't drink wine, because it makes dining out not as pleasurable. I was sympathetic to her view and we very compatibly shared a bottle of wine when we dined out together.
I'm now in a relationship with a woman from another culture and another continent, and she is critical of my nightly wine drinking (2 glasses worth). She will occasionally drink some, and usually has one Margarita when we dine out.
"Epistemic Chaos" accelerates. On the anti-alcohol side:
1) Surgeon General
2) Tyler Cowen
3) Popular Floozies like Andrew Huberman
4) Millennials positioning themselves to advocate for more, and more legal weed.
On the Pro-Alcohol Side:
1) Scott Galloway
2) "European Lifestyle"
3) And thankfully--probably the most qualified person on either side--Vinay Prasad.
Not sure I understand calling Huberman a Floozie - do you know his credentials and the work he does?
He said he was being cheeky!
I think that may have been a tongue in cheeker.
Obviously a tongue in cheek comment from Vinay. Very amusing.
I loved the whole piece, especially tongue in cheek!
One more rule to add to the list: no drinking games/contests!
Oh come on! Those can be fun sometimes- games that is -
Basically I agree with Vinay and for the surgeon general to suggest this with such weak evidence is yet another reason that I am really looking forward to a new administration.
I think there was an ulterior motive to this distraction regarding alcohol. I think it is a convenient excuse for the exponential rise in all cause mortality, that we have seen in the past several years. I think that this administration does not really want to search for the actual reasons for this dramatic increase. It’s certainly not alcohol consumption.
I think because big pharma can’t benefit from alcohol it was the current admin’s final dig! 🤣
Could be! A distraction of sorts, creating little and sometimes not so little issues for the next administration to have to fix. When Trump met with Biden and people were talking about Biden’s huge grin, I said to my husband that it was because he’s going to screw the next administration however he could and as many ways as he could. It was not a benevolent smile. He was smiling that Cheshire Cat grin because he had plans. Lots of them. He had lots of secrets and was very excited to wreak havoc.
Agree. Although I still think Jill voted Trump. Which gives me a Cheshire grin.
lol- maybe-
Suspect that the alcohol industry didn’t donate enough money to Biden’s campaign. Payback!
lol- sad and possibly true
Except he said, "Tongue AND cheek".
One more reason i am happy to beca subscriber! You are a realist And a damn thorough investigator. Carry on
I have to wonder just a tad if your position on alcohol isn’t a wee bit influenced by your love of wine?
The tongue-in-cheek comments aside (and wonderfully appreciated), this was masterful. Can I adopt you as another role model? As a somewhat serious red wine drinker, I loved the comment about taking some Sommelier instruction. Another inspiration for this notion is from the book "Cork Dork" which extols the love of wine. Cheers!
Everything in moderation as life is short. Enjoy, and don’t smoke.
Wondering if your studies would include women, or perhaps a RCT just for us? I’m currently on an alcohol sabbatical. At almost 43, I’ve noticed with my change in hormones, adding alcohol leads to PVCs. With heart problems on my maternal side, skipping alcohol to prevent what feels like a skipping heart seems like a good trade off.
I don’t trust much data on alcohol use because it’s not geared towards women, nor does it account for hormonal changes and other hard to measure data points such as anxiety or stress.
Plus, like you said, there are other sides to it such as spiritual. Leaning into alcohol helps diminish my sensitivities to the world, which for many years I yearned for. Now I’m trying to embrace my intuition and grow my somatic awareness and embodiment. Alcohol seems to cloud or restrict my senses, at least the ways I used it.
Sadly, our culture is very pro-alcohol, so it’s hard not to be in the drinking majority. I have studied all your suggested areas and love wine, tequila, champagne, and beer but still feel the best place for me is dry, for now.
I wish you would use your philosophy degree more often and share with more nuance, even though I love your flippancy too. I would love to come to one of your dinner parties but would hope I would bring more to the table than just my love of wine for an invite back.
Not sure why I’m even commenting as you don’t seem to read these anyway. Still a fan, but a bit disappointed in this one.
"You can come to my dinner party and not drink, but you won’t be coming back."
Or,
"You have to be vaccinated to come to my dinner party"
"You can come to my dinner party, but you have to wear a mask"
Sorry Vinay, you lost me. People making reasonable lifestyle choices and trying to be prudent about what they put into their bodies apparently is just too much for you, the vaccine pushers, and the maskers. All you have proven is that you are not a seeker of truth but rather one who desires to coerce behavior around whatever confirmation bias you can tease out of a study.
Your attitude is consistent with millennia of social tribal behavior. The group must ingest brain poison of some type and have their state of mind altered at some level to gain acceptance.
How thoroughly modern and thoughtful. I had high hopes for your work but it really seems like worthless navel gazing at this point. Unsubscribed.
Have you no sense of satire?
Perhaps not. Perhaps no sense at all but Vinay's comment reveals once again that social biases plague science and the search for truth. Maybe Vinay's dinner guest was a former alcoholic that chose not to reveal that past. Vinay is certainly allowed to set the criteria for his dinner guests, but his bias to associate only with people who imbibe, reveals a common problem with those who purport to analyze scientific data.
Should an OCD germophobe conduct studies on masking? Should a vaccine manufacturer be responsible for vaccine policy.
My own bias is that there are a lot of dinner parties you can tell that I am no longer invited to because I didn't meet the social standard as to what I drank, wore on my face or though about as to what I was injected with. Best
Dr. Mike Osterholm for some time here in Minnesota during rampant COVID days had a strict policy of requiring people who came to dinner parties at his lavish skyscraper condominium to "test negative" some number of times within a prior time period before an event. We have to suppose that he, his partner, and their guests dropped their 3M face masks for the no-doubt fine wines served during the vigorous pre-dinner gemutlichkeit as the candles flickered all around.
Steve, the difference is there are several thousand years of evidence of benefits of alcohol (that doesn't mean there aren't "costs"). But there isn't great evidence of the benefits of the covid vax, and almost no good evidence of the benefits of continuing masking in public against the covid virus.
It has been said that traditions are still traditions because they are behavior patterns that work, that have stood the test of time. With that said, I'm sure that we are all happy that many behaviors from the last several thousand years have disappeared.
Sure, social bonding, French paradox, stress reduction, the tradition of drinking sterile alcohol versus a contaminated water source could all be looked at as possible benefits.
The question is whether alcohol is damaging to human organs and at what amounts.
A researcher with a certain level of social bias to alcohol' s benefit loses credibility on this issue.
Maybe Steve would benefit from a great glass of red wine. 🍷
Your becoming my hero! I was just telling my wife something similar!
As a fellow oncologist and wine enthusiast, I salute VP. He reminds us that our lifestyles should not be divided into good vs. bad. You do you. The surgeon general and his clueless posse seem to feel good about false indoctrination and shaming. Even worse, they create an army of judgmental ignoramuses that perpetuates nonsense and call it science.
My brother (a PhD virologist) and I (an MD) were introduced to alcohol by our parents as children. We would be given a tiny glass of the wine that was being serve at family occasion dinners and also a wee bit of champagne on NYE. A taste of a beer or a cocktail at times, mostly resulting in us making yuck faces. We live in Wisconsin, which has a horrific alcohol issue, but we never ended up in that group.
We continue to enjoy wine and cocktails with family and friends, and my daughters either took oenology classes in college or bartended. One is quite a good mixologist. My husband's family were teetotalers and he drinks rarely.
Based on family and personal experience as a physician, the only folks I have seen (and I have seen many in my 35 years) with significant health issues are those who have a drinking issue. Our state should have cancer numbers at the top end of the scale if light and moderate drinking caused this many tumors. I don't believe that is the case.
I love your comments, Vinay, and feel they are pretty similar to the way my family has functioned for years.
I can definitely relate to the beginning of your comment. I was raised in a family that embraced our Italian heritage. Wine was served at every Holiday meal and children were always welcome to have a small glass of whatever was being served. There were no taboos around alcohol consumption and I think that because of that, our attitudes toward alcohol were formed such that I was not interested in consuming large quantities of it in high school or college. Among the biggest consumers of alcohol at my high school was a group of Mormon teens, for whom alcohol was forbidden. This made it very desirable to them. My husband and I raised our children as I was raised and had no issues with them and alcohol. It wasn’t mysterious or a rebellious act to drink so they didn’t abuse the privilege.
Completely agree with that, Michelle. When I was growing up the drinking age was 18, and I still didn’t binge drink in college. Enjoyed parties in college and med school but never really had issues with being hungover. Neither of my daughters got in trouble in college although I know they drank at times.
Yes, exactly.
You are the best !
"23. People who don’t drink because they seek longevity will likely live a short, miserable life."
Really Vinay? - do you think you might have a drinking problem?
A toast to this article!!
If you're up early on sunday you'll see all the people who dont drink
My 90-something old MIL is the most anti-drinking person I've ever met and she's old and weirdly happy. She thinks that anyone who has ever had a drink is an alcoholic and if you deny it, she'll say denying it is proof.
What's the current evidence on drinking while pregnant? Back when I was pregnant 30-some years ago, it was okay to have one drink a day. A few years after that, they started saying no amount is okay.
And where are we with eggs? I can't keep up with government recommendations.