I would like to see a response from Vinay about RFK Jr's concerns over the way childhood vaccines are "placebo" tested. After a little digging it does appear that at least some and maybe most of the childhood vaccine safety testing was not done against what I would consider to be a placebo but rather older versions of vaccines or other vaccines or all the ingredients but the virus. This seems to be a flawed way to do safety testing of a medical product of which I was completely unaware until listening to RFK and doing some digging of my own. When I heard him discuss this I thought this seems crazy and can't be true but it does appear to be true in at least some cases. How can this kind of testing ever result in any claim of either efficacy or safety of the product in question? What do I have wrong here Vinay? If you have responded to this particular item and I missed it I would like to be pointed to it by someone but I have not seen it to date.
This article (https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/rfk-jr-vaccine-disinformation/) debunking RFK Jr does address this issue briefly and points to this paper (https://www.kevinmd.com/2017/05/vaccine-study-youll-never-see.html) as the reason why placebo controlled studies can't be performed on childhood vaccines as RFK Jr would like. I read both this article and the linked paper and this has to be a joke right? The more these people try to "debunk" this guy the more they make me think there must be something going on here because the doctor's argument in the linked paper is absolutely laughable. Is it actually possible to make it all the way through medical school and have no idea of the concept of the straw man fallacy? The doctor presents what he calls a simple study that attempts to test all childhood vaccines on the schedule at one time. How about if instead he addresses the elephant in the room; why was there never a single placebo study done on these vaccines at the time each was developed and put through the "regulatory process." I probably have had more vaccines than most out there due to military service around the world but these people seem bound and determined to remove any bit of credibility they have ever had and I am not sure how they will get it back.
Would love to listen to you and RFK jr discuss all of these issues/ideas and more on JRE. I respect and appreciate the both of you and Joe Rogan as well.
Only 1 out of the 30 vaccines on the childhood schedule have had an RCT ever performed on them. This is by the government's own admission. Please see pages 4-7 of the link below that document this.
Why isn't Vinay joining RFK jr in demanding these trials?
We can have reliable knowledge independently of RCTs and such knowledge does not make vaccines look good. The unvaccinated Amish have ZERO autism in their children. That is a bad mark against the pro vax position. The pediatric practices that do no vax and have zero autism is another bad mark against the vaxxers. See Steve Kirsch substack on these points.
Of course, they don't want to legitimize RFK Jr - because he's RIGHT about a lot of things and no one wants the truth to be heard.
Once people realize he's telling the TRUTH about the lack of true placebo vaccine trials for kids' vaccines, the fact that doctors and nurses don't report the majority of injuries to VAERS (sometimes because they're forced not to, sometimes because they are making a judgement on whether it's related which is NOT their job - the CDC is supposed to do that looking for safety signals), and the fact that our country's vaccine injured families are being gas-lit and failed by the US's vaccine court. Yeah. It sucks. Especially because if you try to acknowledge these things, you'll be blacklisted.
Let the deabtes roll. Perhaps RFK Jr. should start with someone like Vinay who is not 180 degrees opposed to him. Then as he refines and sharpens his arguments, he will be able to take on people who are more strongly opposed to him.
Gathering correct raw data is also a problem if physicians are more concerned with squashing vaccine resistance or are misled about what to expect. I have known several people who had signs or symptoms following COVID vaccination but their physicians told them it must be a coincidence, because "the vaccine is completely safe." One friend suffered transient hemiparesis after the first shot, and 24 hours of hemiparesis after the the second. Her PCP insisted it couldn't be the vaccine, and still wanted her to get the booster! (We encouraged her not to, but to switch doctors and get her symptoms into VAERS.)
Reyes syndrome in children was discovereed as a side effect of aspirin nearly 100 years after it was introduced. Many drugs are discontinued after several years in the market as new side effects are discovered. How can physicians say that a new vaccine based on a brand new technology is "completely safe" based on data from a few months of trial in which pregnant women and seniors with comorbidities were specifically excluded, and in which all-cause mortality was higher in the vaccine gorup.
The fact that most physicians are either so brainwashed or so ignorant or so afraid tells you more about modern medicine than anything else could.
Vinay, do u realize that most of your intelligent paying readers are in mass agreement with the basic points of RFKj when it comes to the dangers of vaccines? I have seen this trend on most social media posts throughout the pandemic and since Kennedy entered the president race. The only exception, the “sheeple” following some of the most ardent defenders of Pharma”. Ought this not be part of the analysis of the risks of the vaccines. Too many people have been directly exposed to the damage done by vaccines. I know that’s “anecdotal” but it is a real phenomenon and shows that the damage is not rare. I am absolutely convinced that the vaccine schedule is damaging to children because I have seen enough cases of it in my practice.
I am sure RFK Jr is more open to refining his views toward vaccine issues than Dr Peter Hotez is. If asked what he would do as president to restore faith in Public Health I am sure he would say: end agency capture across the entire health sector. That should include our professional organizations and journals that have also been captured by pharma and insurers in addition to the FDA and CDC. He would also overhaul our ineffective vaccine safety surveillance system. It is clear, as mentioned, that the components of our safety surveillance system are unable to detect “signals.” We led from behind on this because our approach on vaccines has not been genuinely concerned with safety and in whom, but rather to push them out to the public and to vociferously counter those who are opposed to or question them. I do not believe RFK would ban vaccines, as I think single minded folks like Dr Hotez or the MSM sycophants who platform him would lead one to believe. He would facilitate funding for vaccinology and adversology so we better understand them and I believe he would likely strive to change the early childhood vaccine schedule based upon data. Please tell me why all newborns in the US with low rates of vertical transmission of Hep B need to be vaccinated? If mom has Hep B then the answer is different. Why do all newborns need rotavirus vaccination when the risk of dying from it in the US is minuscule? Certainly the risk of death from rotavirus is quite different in developing countries but in the US we have to reconsider the need for a vaccine that does not block rotavirus infection.
It is interesting to read both this and Sensible Medicine’s posts today as they both show the deep corruption and object failure of the bureaucratic public health approach toward pandemic vaccines and mitigating measures. There needs to a “morbidity and mortality conference” on this and I think of all the candidates the only one who will do that without partisan contamination is RFK.
"Please tell me why all newborns in the US with low rates of vertical transmission of Hep B need to be vaccinated? If mom has Hep B then the answer is different. "
And while someone's at it - please tell me why pediatricians will tell moms who tested negative for Hep B and declined the newborn vaccine that they need the vaccine for their kids so that when they have sex at age 15 they'll be protected even though by age 15 less than 50% of kids vaccinated with Hep B at birth will have any detectable immunity.
Happened to me TWICE. How many parents are wandering around proud that they "protected" their kid and have no clue that their kid may have no detectable immunity anymore????
The purpose of giving useless (and potentially harmful) vaccines to newborns is to plant the seeds of chronic diseases early so that a certain percentage of them can become lifelong customers for pharma.
This debate can't be ducked anymore. The stakes are too high. Both sides agree that the public health policies in questions are of the the utmost importance. Both sides are following rational thought through to the conclusion that their policy position is correct. If Vaccines are the only thing keeping us safe from devastating outbreaks and aren't a factor in the growing prevalence of chronic conditions then the proponents of the status quo are right. But guess what, this side just green lit vaccines for kids where the Number Needed to Vaccinate to save one life per the FDA documentation as of October 2021 was 1 million. When you do stuff like that your credibility gets shot.
If the other side is right, if vaccines play a part in the growing epidemic of Autism, and the actual bulwark against childhood infectious diseases is other aspects of modernity, clean water, nutrition, hygiene, then we've been making an awful mistake and it has to stop. The time for a full audit is now. Science shouldn't have to hide behind reputation. Show your work. Show your data.
In spite of the impression my comments may leave you with, I really do have great respect for you. Here’s another one:
Whatever this quality science/ evidence is that has you cheerleading the regular childhood vaccination schedule… no need to wait for a debate with RFK Jr to bust it out. Why not show it to us here (?) because the curiosity is killing me!
I’m well aware there is quantity.
But you are a quality advocate.
I don’t doubt your expertise in distinguishing quality. I really want to know which specific studies you are basing your opinion on- and why.
Thank you for this piece, I so appreciate you. It is what so many of us were thinking seeing the inane number of tweets that Hoetez is spewing onto Twitter. Would love to hear you have a conversation with RFK Jr. especially about his claims on how vaccines are tested before they are approved. The Covid trials were insane and the fact that they released their control group has set me with the mind set that I will never get another Covid vaccine again unless I see some serious trials first and there appears to be a risk for me. I would also love to see you have a conversation with Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying. Their perspectives as evolutionary biologists and yours as a clinician with your expertise in reading research would be fascinating. They would be respectful (even after some of yours and Dr. Z's comments) and are known for changing their minds as you are with better arguments and data.
I almost hate to put Hotez and RFKJr. in the same Comment. But I do think you make a wonderful point in this essay and that is that you would want to know Kennedy's policy positions on vaccines and what he would do toward implementing them and the regulatory agencies that oversee them. I've heard you say several times that you are a progressive and that there's a lot you like about this candidate. Because Kennedy has offered to be "shown where he's wrong," why not step up, give the man a call, help him see how a scientist's vantage point differs from that of an attorney. And how he could craft a viable vaccine POLICY.
All this vax talk is only part of this guy anyway. Who's asked DeSantis what his position is? How about any of the other candidates? We already know the DNC's. It's Biden/Harris and msm blackout of RFKJr. Hearing his speech in NH this week, I was struck by his vision for our country, moved to tears even. Help the guy out, Vinay.
Many who refuse to support their opinions with facts will refuse to be subject to any opposition. Let’s leave RFK Jr out of it and have Hotez debate a real scientist/physician like Vinay Prasad, Marty Makary, Jay Bhattacharya, etc. I would buy tickets for that!
*YOU* Dr. Prasad need to go on JRE. He actually allows people to speak at length about topics. Not forcing them to pull an Inigo Montoya. "Let me explain...no there's no time...let me sum up" MSM's 30 second sound bites are useless. But that's partly how we got into this mess. We BELIEVED (past tense!!!) experts on these shows with their pithy statements because the commercial break was minutes/seconds away. But no more. Mine eyes have seen the clown $hit show that they are.
I would like to see a response from Vinay about RFK Jr's concerns over the way childhood vaccines are "placebo" tested. After a little digging it does appear that at least some and maybe most of the childhood vaccine safety testing was not done against what I would consider to be a placebo but rather older versions of vaccines or other vaccines or all the ingredients but the virus. This seems to be a flawed way to do safety testing of a medical product of which I was completely unaware until listening to RFK and doing some digging of my own. When I heard him discuss this I thought this seems crazy and can't be true but it does appear to be true in at least some cases. How can this kind of testing ever result in any claim of either efficacy or safety of the product in question? What do I have wrong here Vinay? If you have responded to this particular item and I missed it I would like to be pointed to it by someone but I have not seen it to date.
Gooch,
I would love to hear a response from Vinay about what RFK Jr has been shining the light on for 20 yrs now:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160116213617/http://www.putchildrenfirst.org/chapter1.html
This article (https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/rfk-jr-vaccine-disinformation/) debunking RFK Jr does address this issue briefly and points to this paper (https://www.kevinmd.com/2017/05/vaccine-study-youll-never-see.html) as the reason why placebo controlled studies can't be performed on childhood vaccines as RFK Jr would like. I read both this article and the linked paper and this has to be a joke right? The more these people try to "debunk" this guy the more they make me think there must be something going on here because the doctor's argument in the linked paper is absolutely laughable. Is it actually possible to make it all the way through medical school and have no idea of the concept of the straw man fallacy? The doctor presents what he calls a simple study that attempts to test all childhood vaccines on the schedule at one time. How about if instead he addresses the elephant in the room; why was there never a single placebo study done on these vaccines at the time each was developed and put through the "regulatory process." I probably have had more vaccines than most out there due to military service around the world but these people seem bound and determined to remove any bit of credibility they have ever had and I am not sure how they will get it back.
Would love to listen to you and RFK jr discuss all of these issues/ideas and more on JRE. I respect and appreciate the both of you and Joe Rogan as well.
Only 1 out of the 30 vaccines on the childhood schedule have had an RCT ever performed on them. This is by the government's own admission. Please see pages 4-7 of the link below that document this.
Why isn't Vinay joining RFK jr in demanding these trials?
We can have reliable knowledge independently of RCTs and such knowledge does not make vaccines look good. The unvaccinated Amish have ZERO autism in their children. That is a bad mark against the pro vax position. The pediatric practices that do no vax and have zero autism is another bad mark against the vaxxers. See Steve Kirsch substack on these points.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.skepticalraptor.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/ICAN-Reply-December-31-2018.pdf?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
Of course, they don't want to legitimize RFK Jr - because he's RIGHT about a lot of things and no one wants the truth to be heard.
Once people realize he's telling the TRUTH about the lack of true placebo vaccine trials for kids' vaccines, the fact that doctors and nurses don't report the majority of injuries to VAERS (sometimes because they're forced not to, sometimes because they are making a judgement on whether it's related which is NOT their job - the CDC is supposed to do that looking for safety signals), and the fact that our country's vaccine injured families are being gas-lit and failed by the US's vaccine court. Yeah. It sucks. Especially because if you try to acknowledge these things, you'll be blacklisted.
Let the deabtes roll. Perhaps RFK Jr. should start with someone like Vinay who is not 180 degrees opposed to him. Then as he refines and sharpens his arguments, he will be able to take on people who are more strongly opposed to him.
Gathering correct raw data is also a problem if physicians are more concerned with squashing vaccine resistance or are misled about what to expect. I have known several people who had signs or symptoms following COVID vaccination but their physicians told them it must be a coincidence, because "the vaccine is completely safe." One friend suffered transient hemiparesis after the first shot, and 24 hours of hemiparesis after the the second. Her PCP insisted it couldn't be the vaccine, and still wanted her to get the booster! (We encouraged her not to, but to switch doctors and get her symptoms into VAERS.)
Reyes syndrome in children was discovereed as a side effect of aspirin nearly 100 years after it was introduced. Many drugs are discontinued after several years in the market as new side effects are discovered. How can physicians say that a new vaccine based on a brand new technology is "completely safe" based on data from a few months of trial in which pregnant women and seniors with comorbidities were specifically excluded, and in which all-cause mortality was higher in the vaccine gorup.
The fact that most physicians are either so brainwashed or so ignorant or so afraid tells you more about modern medicine than anything else could.
Vinay, do u realize that most of your intelligent paying readers are in mass agreement with the basic points of RFKj when it comes to the dangers of vaccines? I have seen this trend on most social media posts throughout the pandemic and since Kennedy entered the president race. The only exception, the “sheeple” following some of the most ardent defenders of Pharma”. Ought this not be part of the analysis of the risks of the vaccines. Too many people have been directly exposed to the damage done by vaccines. I know that’s “anecdotal” but it is a real phenomenon and shows that the damage is not rare. I am absolutely convinced that the vaccine schedule is damaging to children because I have seen enough cases of it in my practice.
I am sure RFK Jr is more open to refining his views toward vaccine issues than Dr Peter Hotez is. If asked what he would do as president to restore faith in Public Health I am sure he would say: end agency capture across the entire health sector. That should include our professional organizations and journals that have also been captured by pharma and insurers in addition to the FDA and CDC. He would also overhaul our ineffective vaccine safety surveillance system. It is clear, as mentioned, that the components of our safety surveillance system are unable to detect “signals.” We led from behind on this because our approach on vaccines has not been genuinely concerned with safety and in whom, but rather to push them out to the public and to vociferously counter those who are opposed to or question them. I do not believe RFK would ban vaccines, as I think single minded folks like Dr Hotez or the MSM sycophants who platform him would lead one to believe. He would facilitate funding for vaccinology and adversology so we better understand them and I believe he would likely strive to change the early childhood vaccine schedule based upon data. Please tell me why all newborns in the US with low rates of vertical transmission of Hep B need to be vaccinated? If mom has Hep B then the answer is different. Why do all newborns need rotavirus vaccination when the risk of dying from it in the US is minuscule? Certainly the risk of death from rotavirus is quite different in developing countries but in the US we have to reconsider the need for a vaccine that does not block rotavirus infection.
It is interesting to read both this and Sensible Medicine’s posts today as they both show the deep corruption and object failure of the bureaucratic public health approach toward pandemic vaccines and mitigating measures. There needs to a “morbidity and mortality conference” on this and I think of all the candidates the only one who will do that without partisan contamination is RFK.
https://open.substack.com/pub/sensiblemed/p/rochelle-walenskys-report-card-on?r=9ozy8&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
"Please tell me why all newborns in the US with low rates of vertical transmission of Hep B need to be vaccinated? If mom has Hep B then the answer is different. "
And while someone's at it - please tell me why pediatricians will tell moms who tested negative for Hep B and declined the newborn vaccine that they need the vaccine for their kids so that when they have sex at age 15 they'll be protected even though by age 15 less than 50% of kids vaccinated with Hep B at birth will have any detectable immunity.
Happened to me TWICE. How many parents are wandering around proud that they "protected" their kid and have no clue that their kid may have no detectable immunity anymore????
The purpose of giving useless (and potentially harmful) vaccines to newborns is to plant the seeds of chronic diseases early so that a certain percentage of them can become lifelong customers for pharma.
This debate can't be ducked anymore. The stakes are too high. Both sides agree that the public health policies in questions are of the the utmost importance. Both sides are following rational thought through to the conclusion that their policy position is correct. If Vaccines are the only thing keeping us safe from devastating outbreaks and aren't a factor in the growing prevalence of chronic conditions then the proponents of the status quo are right. But guess what, this side just green lit vaccines for kids where the Number Needed to Vaccinate to save one life per the FDA documentation as of October 2021 was 1 million. When you do stuff like that your credibility gets shot.
If the other side is right, if vaccines play a part in the growing epidemic of Autism, and the actual bulwark against childhood infectious diseases is other aspects of modernity, clean water, nutrition, hygiene, then we've been making an awful mistake and it has to stop. The time for a full audit is now. Science shouldn't have to hide behind reputation. Show your work. Show your data.
Vinay,
In spite of the impression my comments may leave you with, I really do have great respect for you. Here’s another one:
Whatever this quality science/ evidence is that has you cheerleading the regular childhood vaccination schedule… no need to wait for a debate with RFK Jr to bust it out. Why not show it to us here (?) because the curiosity is killing me!
I’m well aware there is quantity.
But you are a quality advocate.
I don’t doubt your expertise in distinguishing quality. I really want to know which specific studies you are basing your opinion on- and why.
It’s not really a poker match.
We’re all trying to arrive at the truth.
Why not show your cards?
Thank you for this piece, I so appreciate you. It is what so many of us were thinking seeing the inane number of tweets that Hoetez is spewing onto Twitter. Would love to hear you have a conversation with RFK Jr. especially about his claims on how vaccines are tested before they are approved. The Covid trials were insane and the fact that they released their control group has set me with the mind set that I will never get another Covid vaccine again unless I see some serious trials first and there appears to be a risk for me. I would also love to see you have a conversation with Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying. Their perspectives as evolutionary biologists and yours as a clinician with your expertise in reading research would be fascinating. They would be respectful (even after some of yours and Dr. Z's comments) and are known for changing their minds as you are with better arguments and data.
Anyone who is paid by tax dollars is accountable to the public by the public, without institutional playpen guarded by the police state.
I almost hate to put Hotez and RFKJr. in the same Comment. But I do think you make a wonderful point in this essay and that is that you would want to know Kennedy's policy positions on vaccines and what he would do toward implementing them and the regulatory agencies that oversee them. I've heard you say several times that you are a progressive and that there's a lot you like about this candidate. Because Kennedy has offered to be "shown where he's wrong," why not step up, give the man a call, help him see how a scientist's vantage point differs from that of an attorney. And how he could craft a viable vaccine POLICY.
All this vax talk is only part of this guy anyway. Who's asked DeSantis what his position is? How about any of the other candidates? We already know the DNC's. It's Biden/Harris and msm blackout of RFKJr. Hearing his speech in NH this week, I was struck by his vision for our country, moved to tears even. Help the guy out, Vinay.
Many who refuse to support their opinions with facts will refuse to be subject to any opposition. Let’s leave RFK Jr out of it and have Hotez debate a real scientist/physician like Vinay Prasad, Marty Makary, Jay Bhattacharya, etc. I would buy tickets for that!
*YOU* Dr. Prasad need to go on JRE. He actually allows people to speak at length about topics. Not forcing them to pull an Inigo Montoya. "Let me explain...no there's no time...let me sum up" MSM's 30 second sound bites are useless. But that's partly how we got into this mess. We BELIEVED (past tense!!!) experts on these shows with their pithy statements because the commercial break was minutes/seconds away. But no more. Mine eyes have seen the clown $hit show that they are.
Vinay, Will you walk the talk and accept the challenge? I'm hoping you will. See https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/will-ucsf-professor-vinay-prasad
Silence so far...