I work in a nursing home and were still "masking" i.e. masks around chins, nose out, standard hygiene theater stuff. I tried a couple weeks ago to start a cascade by just dropping the pretense and I walked around with no mask hoping that it would give implicit permission to other staff to do the same, but I think it may have started some…
I work in a nursing home and were still "masking" i.e. masks around chins, nose out, standard hygiene theater stuff. I tried a couple weeks ago to start a cascade by just dropping the pretense and I walked around with no mask hoping that it would give implicit permission to other staff to do the same, but I think it may have started some sh*t because the administrator that is functioning as the infection preventionist sent out an all staff email saying that we still needed to mask and that it wasn't fair to visiting families (who we are asking to mask) if they see us unmasked.
I want to go to the mat on this issue but I honestly dont feel like I have a winning argument.
1) It seems indisputable that masks do provide some level of filtration and any filtration results in less virons in the atmosphere and thus less risk of a resident getting an infection. Some reduction, no matter how minuscule, is better than nothing given the high stakes (a resident dying). I dont know how to counter that.
2) If I say that masking has been shown not to work (Cochrane etc.). Shes gonna reply, "Yeah, they didnt work because people werent wearing their masks correctly. Just like you idiots here dont wear your masks correctly. If you all wore them properly then they will work. SO WEAR THEM CORRECTLY!" And I dont know how to counter that.
Easy. Just ask for the data. There are no studies that show what you have suggested, ie 'proper' mask wearing works. And the part about slight reduction in virons is nonsense. Unless everyone is wearing fit tested N95s, and I mean everyone, residents, staff, visitors, at all times, which is impossible and still wouldn't work because it's impossible and N95s weren't made for that. They are for short duration while taking care of known aerosol infections diseases. Surgical masks do nothing but prevent me from getting splashed in the mouth with blood in the OR while talking. I've got an easy example, many Asian countries and China in particular have been wearing masks everywhere for decades, nothing to do with COVID. Thing asian tourists wearing masks. This was due to various things including prior smaller outbreaks over last 30 years in those parts of the world and also pollution in some of the major cities. So in China masks were part of daily life since the 90s. If masks worked how could COVID have been so bad in 2022 in China?! All theater, no data. As for going to the mat, you won't win, assuming you can be fired. Also, none of those visitors want to wear masks and hate that they are being asked to.
Thanks for that reply. Re: "There are no studies that show what you have suggested, ie 'proper' mask wearing works" Is that right? So you're not disputing the fact that masks, worn correctly, in these lab studies do provide filtration, its just that this doesn't appear to have an effect when you move into the real world?
Correct. Masks were never meant for the real world. You need to start from the premise that nothing works until it is proven. You can't go from masks obviously provide some filtration to well then wearing them must be better then not wearing them. Even if it helps a little. Ok then prove it helps a little. And helps how? What's a little? You are arguing with someone who has no understanding of basic medicine, science, epidemiology, evidence based medicine. Anyone who is still arguing on that side will comfortably say still today, but you don't want to kill grandma do you? If you say no you don't want to then they think they've won. But that's not an argument. VP articulates these points better than I do but he's saying the same things.
I work in a nursing home and were still "masking" i.e. masks around chins, nose out, standard hygiene theater stuff. I tried a couple weeks ago to start a cascade by just dropping the pretense and I walked around with no mask hoping that it would give implicit permission to other staff to do the same, but I think it may have started some sh*t because the administrator that is functioning as the infection preventionist sent out an all staff email saying that we still needed to mask and that it wasn't fair to visiting families (who we are asking to mask) if they see us unmasked.
I want to go to the mat on this issue but I honestly dont feel like I have a winning argument.
1) It seems indisputable that masks do provide some level of filtration and any filtration results in less virons in the atmosphere and thus less risk of a resident getting an infection. Some reduction, no matter how minuscule, is better than nothing given the high stakes (a resident dying). I dont know how to counter that.
2) If I say that masking has been shown not to work (Cochrane etc.). Shes gonna reply, "Yeah, they didnt work because people werent wearing their masks correctly. Just like you idiots here dont wear your masks correctly. If you all wore them properly then they will work. SO WEAR THEM CORRECTLY!" And I dont know how to counter that.
Easy. Just ask for the data. There are no studies that show what you have suggested, ie 'proper' mask wearing works. And the part about slight reduction in virons is nonsense. Unless everyone is wearing fit tested N95s, and I mean everyone, residents, staff, visitors, at all times, which is impossible and still wouldn't work because it's impossible and N95s weren't made for that. They are for short duration while taking care of known aerosol infections diseases. Surgical masks do nothing but prevent me from getting splashed in the mouth with blood in the OR while talking. I've got an easy example, many Asian countries and China in particular have been wearing masks everywhere for decades, nothing to do with COVID. Thing asian tourists wearing masks. This was due to various things including prior smaller outbreaks over last 30 years in those parts of the world and also pollution in some of the major cities. So in China masks were part of daily life since the 90s. If masks worked how could COVID have been so bad in 2022 in China?! All theater, no data. As for going to the mat, you won't win, assuming you can be fired. Also, none of those visitors want to wear masks and hate that they are being asked to.
Thanks for that reply. Re: "There are no studies that show what you have suggested, ie 'proper' mask wearing works" Is that right? So you're not disputing the fact that masks, worn correctly, in these lab studies do provide filtration, its just that this doesn't appear to have an effect when you move into the real world?
Correct. Masks were never meant for the real world. You need to start from the premise that nothing works until it is proven. You can't go from masks obviously provide some filtration to well then wearing them must be better then not wearing them. Even if it helps a little. Ok then prove it helps a little. And helps how? What's a little? You are arguing with someone who has no understanding of basic medicine, science, epidemiology, evidence based medicine. Anyone who is still arguing on that side will comfortably say still today, but you don't want to kill grandma do you? If you say no you don't want to then they think they've won. But that's not an argument. VP articulates these points better than I do but he's saying the same things.