"Instead of spending money on paid sick leave, and universal health care, liberals have squandered their social capital on masking advice, which is nonsensical and unproven. They are no better than the misinformed people they mock. It is just different misinformation."
It appears that those that continue to advocate masking are actually wearing them incorrectly because it appears that they are covering their eyes because they are blind to reality and truth.
I’m immunocompromised and thank my ID and GI docs for reassuring me with the very information VP is illustrating. I was initially frightened as many of us were; but after my first “risky” move not wearing a mask as well as watching political medical “leaders” seem to be following the money (and fear, which also pays well), and I started to think maybe this mask stuff needs more looks. People like VP saved my bacon. Fear was less, life was life again, and I’m still alive after eventually, getting Covid from a “safe gathering” of family. Such a good article and another demonstration that for some populations of humans, common sense isn’t very common.
I just got back from meeting my brother and sister-in-law at a local office of a major medical group in Connecticut. We were there to talk to a doctor about helping deal with the various issues related to my brother's late stage Parkinsons. Big sign on the door - you can't enter without a mask. Any type apparently, since none was specified. So I dug out a well used cloth mask from my car glovebox and went in. And I'm there to get "expert" advice on dealing with Parkinsons disease. Perhaps medicinal leeches would help with the balance issues and halucinations?
This is why I as a physician stopped wearing them in the office and told patients they didn't need to long before the 'powers that be' finally made the decision in Feb 2023 to stop requiring masks in all our medical offices in NJ.
I love to comment here. I like seeing different perspectives and weigh in on debates. I learn a lot. My mind is always challenged. But I can not comment any further on Dr. Prasad's post. He said it all.
I mostly agree with Vinay as usual. As a retired pulmonologist, I can tell fellow readers that some deleterious effects of masking are myths. They do NOT cause CO2 retention. Some anxious people can feel suffodated but if they must mask, dealing with the anxiety is the right course. The infectious risk of wearing a wet mask exposes the wearer to his/her own germs, which is a fact of daily life. The most important adverse side effects are the impact on emotion, heightening of concern and interfering in the essential non-verbal aspects of early infant and childhood learning. I remember when Fauci implied that we might never be able to shake hands or go places without masks. In all sincerity, he drank the well fermented brew that he himself had concocted.
I also remember Fauci saying, a few days after his pronouncement on shaking hands, that meeting someone casually on Tinder and hooking up was a personal choice.
Yes, I can’t stop saying it: “Face Diapers are Stupid,” and so are the ass-clowns demanding we use them in public. Over thirty years ago, I often heard surgeons in the OR saying the same thing: that surgical masks do Not prevent viral infections from spreading, at all--they just prevent drooling or large sneeze/cough particulates from spraying on the patient/open incisions, but would still spray out the sides of the mask onto the surgical team standing next to you.
Thank you for continuing to clarify this slippery issue. Something I’ve heard: “But in Asia, they’ve been doing it for decades!” I now know to say that they’ve been doing something unproven for decades. This nasty issue continues to create endless sturm und drang in media, and i find it upsetting, so I’m glad that you and others are providing an opposing viewpoint that makes sense.
Thank you Vinay! And yes, they do cause harm. We need to see faces when we communicate, especially children when developing their language skills and learning to read. Far too many people still feel they must “Do something” to offer protection when clearly they don’t. Please keep voicing this so more people will hear it, we can’t let it become the norm!
I've commented before on this, but I'm a practicing pulmonologist and I quit wearing a mask about a year ago at work. There's still a policy in place, but it's ridiculous (ie you don't have to wear a mask at the nursing stations until a patient or visitor approaches...um, ok....). I was written up once, and my answer was something along the lines of being the only specialist in lung disease at the hospital and if the administration wanted to force what they are implying is a medical intervention on me, they would have to fire me. Spoiler alert- I'm still there and haven't heard another thing about it. I don't understand why other physicians don't just quit wearing them. We need to be leaders on this.
They still make you wear a mask at work!! I made a new years resolution to stop wearing it at work (office and hospital). I have already been written up and reported by administrators (at the hospital). Apparently I found if it's in your hand or held in the general vicinity of your head suggesting intent to put it on soon, or on your chin (like nurses in the PACU) I don't get reported.
On another note, and for some humor, I still cough (when I need to) into 2 cupped hands. My kids, including my 6 year old, reprimand me to no end that I must cough into the inside of my elbow (I assume when wearing a long sleeve shirt). They say coughing into your hands is the 'old' way. Today my 6 year old even started explaining to me how particles fly through the small gaps between my fingers and it's pointless. I asked him to show me the RCT comparing coughing into your hands vs the inside of your elbow. He and my other older kids felt I lost the argument before I started, despite my MD and Masters in Epidemiology. I wasn't even going to suggest to them that both methods are probably just being polite and really do nothing. But what do I know. I'm just their dad.
I work in a nursing home and were still "masking" i.e. masks around chins, nose out, standard hygiene theater stuff. I tried a couple weeks ago to start a cascade by just dropping the pretense and I walked around with no mask hoping that it would give implicit permission to other staff to do the same, but I think it may have started some sh*t because the administrator that is functioning as the infection preventionist sent out an all staff email saying that we still needed to mask and that it wasn't fair to visiting families (who we are asking to mask) if they see us unmasked.
I want to go to the mat on this issue but I honestly dont feel like I have a winning argument.
1) It seems indisputable that masks do provide some level of filtration and any filtration results in less virons in the atmosphere and thus less risk of a resident getting an infection. Some reduction, no matter how minuscule, is better than nothing given the high stakes (a resident dying). I dont know how to counter that.
2) If I say that masking has been shown not to work (Cochrane etc.). Shes gonna reply, "Yeah, they didnt work because people werent wearing their masks correctly. Just like you idiots here dont wear your masks correctly. If you all wore them properly then they will work. SO WEAR THEM CORRECTLY!" And I dont know how to counter that.
Easy. Just ask for the data. There are no studies that show what you have suggested, ie 'proper' mask wearing works. And the part about slight reduction in virons is nonsense. Unless everyone is wearing fit tested N95s, and I mean everyone, residents, staff, visitors, at all times, which is impossible and still wouldn't work because it's impossible and N95s weren't made for that. They are for short duration while taking care of known aerosol infections diseases. Surgical masks do nothing but prevent me from getting splashed in the mouth with blood in the OR while talking. I've got an easy example, many Asian countries and China in particular have been wearing masks everywhere for decades, nothing to do with COVID. Thing asian tourists wearing masks. This was due to various things including prior smaller outbreaks over last 30 years in those parts of the world and also pollution in some of the major cities. So in China masks were part of daily life since the 90s. If masks worked how could COVID have been so bad in 2022 in China?! All theater, no data. As for going to the mat, you won't win, assuming you can be fired. Also, none of those visitors want to wear masks and hate that they are being asked to.
Thanks for that reply. Re: "There are no studies that show what you have suggested, ie 'proper' mask wearing works" Is that right? So you're not disputing the fact that masks, worn correctly, in these lab studies do provide filtration, its just that this doesn't appear to have an effect when you move into the real world?
Correct. Masks were never meant for the real world. You need to start from the premise that nothing works until it is proven. You can't go from masks obviously provide some filtration to well then wearing them must be better then not wearing them. Even if it helps a little. Ok then prove it helps a little. And helps how? What's a little? You are arguing with someone who has no understanding of basic medicine, science, epidemiology, evidence based medicine. Anyone who is still arguing on that side will comfortably say still today, but you don't want to kill grandma do you? If you say no you don't want to then they think they've won. But that's not an argument. VP articulates these points better than I do but he's saying the same things.
Thank you for summing this up succinctly. I also think that assuming EVERY SINGLE person can just put things over their face is like assuming everyone can walk - “Get out of that wheelchair you lazy person! Walking prevents covid!” We just threw away people with sensory issues, trauma victims, lip readers, etc. Those people went through hell for 2yrs and I can tell you - most would have happily just gotten Covid vs the alternative.
Hey VP, I'd like to give you a tip on continue improving.
As a GP MD I appreciate your podcasts and substack and I learned a lot from your pointing out flaws in reasoning, policy and research in your smart (specific, measurable etc ) way.
I'm also passionate about justice and EBM. But you're counter effective when you repeat yourself over and over- :
TIP listen to yourself for example in Mandrola, Prasad and Hoeg are back to talk about a new exercise study— can you do too much— and then COVID19 pandemic errors- x¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and compare f.e. your words with John's. What do you hear?
This is everything, VP:
"Instead of spending money on paid sick leave, and universal health care, liberals have squandered their social capital on masking advice, which is nonsensical and unproven. They are no better than the misinformed people they mock. It is just different misinformation."
BINGO!
And also helped to destroy the planet with unnecessary, useless plastic waste. How many straws are worth one mask? 🧐
It appears that those that continue to advocate masking are actually wearing them incorrectly because it appears that they are covering their eyes because they are blind to reality and truth.
Another reason this matters: https://www.thefp.com/p/a-church-the-state-and-a-holy-war?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
Thank you, Dr. Prasad!
I’m immunocompromised and thank my ID and GI docs for reassuring me with the very information VP is illustrating. I was initially frightened as many of us were; but after my first “risky” move not wearing a mask as well as watching political medical “leaders” seem to be following the money (and fear, which also pays well), and I started to think maybe this mask stuff needs more looks. People like VP saved my bacon. Fear was less, life was life again, and I’m still alive after eventually, getting Covid from a “safe gathering” of family. Such a good article and another demonstration that for some populations of humans, common sense isn’t very common.
I just got back from meeting my brother and sister-in-law at a local office of a major medical group in Connecticut. We were there to talk to a doctor about helping deal with the various issues related to my brother's late stage Parkinsons. Big sign on the door - you can't enter without a mask. Any type apparently, since none was specified. So I dug out a well used cloth mask from my car glovebox and went in. And I'm there to get "expert" advice on dealing with Parkinsons disease. Perhaps medicinal leeches would help with the balance issues and halucinations?
This is why I as a physician stopped wearing them in the office and told patients they didn't need to long before the 'powers that be' finally made the decision in Feb 2023 to stop requiring masks in all our medical offices in NJ.
I love to comment here. I like seeing different perspectives and weigh in on debates. I learn a lot. My mind is always challenged. But I can not comment any further on Dr. Prasad's post. He said it all.
I mostly agree with Vinay as usual. As a retired pulmonologist, I can tell fellow readers that some deleterious effects of masking are myths. They do NOT cause CO2 retention. Some anxious people can feel suffodated but if they must mask, dealing with the anxiety is the right course. The infectious risk of wearing a wet mask exposes the wearer to his/her own germs, which is a fact of daily life. The most important adverse side effects are the impact on emotion, heightening of concern and interfering in the essential non-verbal aspects of early infant and childhood learning. I remember when Fauci implied that we might never be able to shake hands or go places without masks. In all sincerity, he drank the well fermented brew that he himself had concocted.
I also remember Fauci saying, a few days after his pronouncement on shaking hands, that meeting someone casually on Tinder and hooking up was a personal choice.
Yes, I can’t stop saying it: “Face Diapers are Stupid,” and so are the ass-clowns demanding we use them in public. Over thirty years ago, I often heard surgeons in the OR saying the same thing: that surgical masks do Not prevent viral infections from spreading, at all--they just prevent drooling or large sneeze/cough particulates from spraying on the patient/open incisions, but would still spray out the sides of the mask onto the surgical team standing next to you.
Thank you for continuing to clarify this slippery issue. Something I’ve heard: “But in Asia, they’ve been doing it for decades!” I now know to say that they’ve been doing something unproven for decades. This nasty issue continues to create endless sturm und drang in media, and i find it upsetting, so I’m glad that you and others are providing an opposing viewpoint that makes sense.
Thank you Vinay! And yes, they do cause harm. We need to see faces when we communicate, especially children when developing their language skills and learning to read. Far too many people still feel they must “Do something” to offer protection when clearly they don’t. Please keep voicing this so more people will hear it, we can’t let it become the norm!
VP bringin' another banger.
I've commented before on this, but I'm a practicing pulmonologist and I quit wearing a mask about a year ago at work. There's still a policy in place, but it's ridiculous (ie you don't have to wear a mask at the nursing stations until a patient or visitor approaches...um, ok....). I was written up once, and my answer was something along the lines of being the only specialist in lung disease at the hospital and if the administration wanted to force what they are implying is a medical intervention on me, they would have to fire me. Spoiler alert- I'm still there and haven't heard another thing about it. I don't understand why other physicians don't just quit wearing them. We need to be leaders on this.
If you are still being forced to mask in UCSF Hospitals, I guess you haven't convinced Bob Wachter of the lack of utility.
They still make you wear a mask at work!! I made a new years resolution to stop wearing it at work (office and hospital). I have already been written up and reported by administrators (at the hospital). Apparently I found if it's in your hand or held in the general vicinity of your head suggesting intent to put it on soon, or on your chin (like nurses in the PACU) I don't get reported.
On another note, and for some humor, I still cough (when I need to) into 2 cupped hands. My kids, including my 6 year old, reprimand me to no end that I must cough into the inside of my elbow (I assume when wearing a long sleeve shirt). They say coughing into your hands is the 'old' way. Today my 6 year old even started explaining to me how particles fly through the small gaps between my fingers and it's pointless. I asked him to show me the RCT comparing coughing into your hands vs the inside of your elbow. He and my other older kids felt I lost the argument before I started, despite my MD and Masters in Epidemiology. I wasn't even going to suggest to them that both methods are probably just being polite and really do nothing. But what do I know. I'm just their dad.
I work in a nursing home and were still "masking" i.e. masks around chins, nose out, standard hygiene theater stuff. I tried a couple weeks ago to start a cascade by just dropping the pretense and I walked around with no mask hoping that it would give implicit permission to other staff to do the same, but I think it may have started some sh*t because the administrator that is functioning as the infection preventionist sent out an all staff email saying that we still needed to mask and that it wasn't fair to visiting families (who we are asking to mask) if they see us unmasked.
I want to go to the mat on this issue but I honestly dont feel like I have a winning argument.
1) It seems indisputable that masks do provide some level of filtration and any filtration results in less virons in the atmosphere and thus less risk of a resident getting an infection. Some reduction, no matter how minuscule, is better than nothing given the high stakes (a resident dying). I dont know how to counter that.
2) If I say that masking has been shown not to work (Cochrane etc.). Shes gonna reply, "Yeah, they didnt work because people werent wearing their masks correctly. Just like you idiots here dont wear your masks correctly. If you all wore them properly then they will work. SO WEAR THEM CORRECTLY!" And I dont know how to counter that.
Easy. Just ask for the data. There are no studies that show what you have suggested, ie 'proper' mask wearing works. And the part about slight reduction in virons is nonsense. Unless everyone is wearing fit tested N95s, and I mean everyone, residents, staff, visitors, at all times, which is impossible and still wouldn't work because it's impossible and N95s weren't made for that. They are for short duration while taking care of known aerosol infections diseases. Surgical masks do nothing but prevent me from getting splashed in the mouth with blood in the OR while talking. I've got an easy example, many Asian countries and China in particular have been wearing masks everywhere for decades, nothing to do with COVID. Thing asian tourists wearing masks. This was due to various things including prior smaller outbreaks over last 30 years in those parts of the world and also pollution in some of the major cities. So in China masks were part of daily life since the 90s. If masks worked how could COVID have been so bad in 2022 in China?! All theater, no data. As for going to the mat, you won't win, assuming you can be fired. Also, none of those visitors want to wear masks and hate that they are being asked to.
Thanks for that reply. Re: "There are no studies that show what you have suggested, ie 'proper' mask wearing works" Is that right? So you're not disputing the fact that masks, worn correctly, in these lab studies do provide filtration, its just that this doesn't appear to have an effect when you move into the real world?
Correct. Masks were never meant for the real world. You need to start from the premise that nothing works until it is proven. You can't go from masks obviously provide some filtration to well then wearing them must be better then not wearing them. Even if it helps a little. Ok then prove it helps a little. And helps how? What's a little? You are arguing with someone who has no understanding of basic medicine, science, epidemiology, evidence based medicine. Anyone who is still arguing on that side will comfortably say still today, but you don't want to kill grandma do you? If you say no you don't want to then they think they've won. But that's not an argument. VP articulates these points better than I do but he's saying the same things.
Thank you!
Thank you for summing this up succinctly. I also think that assuming EVERY SINGLE person can just put things over their face is like assuming everyone can walk - “Get out of that wheelchair you lazy person! Walking prevents covid!” We just threw away people with sensory issues, trauma victims, lip readers, etc. Those people went through hell for 2yrs and I can tell you - most would have happily just gotten Covid vs the alternative.
Hey VP, I'd like to give you a tip on continue improving.
As a GP MD I appreciate your podcasts and substack and I learned a lot from your pointing out flaws in reasoning, policy and research in your smart (specific, measurable etc ) way.
I'm also passionate about justice and EBM. But you're counter effective when you repeat yourself over and over- :
TIP listen to yourself for example in Mandrola, Prasad and Hoeg are back to talk about a new exercise study— can you do too much— and then COVID19 pandemic errors- x¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and compare f.e. your words with John's. What do you hear?